Apprentice changes employer – 30 day rule

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This topic contains 14 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Jaci 1 week, 3 days ago.

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  • JackB
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Back to this topic again.
    So in 2019/20 we had it confirmed that the learner has 30 days to find new employment and transfer the apprenticeship to the new employer and we were to use a break in learning to cover the gap.

    Funding rule P264
    P264 An apprentice has to be employed continuously for the duration of the apprenticeship.
    If their employment is terminated, the individual cannot continue with their apprenticeship (with the exception of redundancy) where the break has been longer than 30 days. When employment or an apprenticeship agreement has ended (resignation, dismissal or any other action by the apprentice or the employer that results in the apprenticeship agreement ending) and new employment hasn’t commenced within 30 days, you must notify us that the apprentice has left in line with P285. Where a new employer is found and employment starts within 30 days, you must manage this using a break in learning to ensure funds are not paid when the apprentice is not employed.

    In 2020/21 contract this has now changed to a withdrawal but set as a restart on the new ILR entry.
    Funding Rule P271:
    P271 An apprentice must be employed continuously for the duration of the apprenticeship. If their employment is terminated, the individual cannot continue with their apprenticeship
    (with the exception of redundancy) where the break has been longer than 30 days.
    When employment or an apprenticeship agreement has ended (resignation, dismissal or any other action by the apprentice or the employer that results in the apprenticeship agreement ending) and new employment hasn’t commenced within 30 days, you must notify us that the apprentice has left in line with P301. Where a new employer is found and employment starts within 30 days, you must manage this using a withdrawal and restart to ensure funds are not paid when the apprentice is not employed.

    Will this then make all employer transfers with some unemployment (but less than 30 days) early leavers or are they updating the QAR to account for the restart?

     
    #452893

    steveh
    Participant

    Yeah, just put this in my email to fundingrules.comments@education.gov.uk suggest you do the same!

    The problem with withdrawing them where they’re not redundant is they’re not exempt from minimum duration with the new employer (and haven’t been added to the list of exemptions!).

    I think/hope it’s a misunderstanding?

    Also, with the exception of someone leaving on 31 January and not starting with a new employer until 1 or 2 March, there’s no other dates where a learner crosses the end of a month where they’ve been unemployed for the entirety of the month.

     
    #452927

    Jaci
    Participant

    Looks like we are all going to have to query this. We are still getting employers putting Learners on a break due to Covid19 and can’t see this ending any time soon even though we are now all encouraged to return and work from the office/workplace etc.

     
    #453234

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    I’m not sorry to not have to manage this without a BIL (I hate managing those), but I would expect them to add another item to the minimum duration exceptions list. Otherwise, that 30 day allowance they just introduced becomes utterly meaningless.

     
    #453972

    JackB
    Participant

    Had a reply today:

    We have made changes to the rule to make it clearer that while we would like a withdrawal (code 40) and a restart to be used, eligibility will not be impacted and we would not expect the apprentice to meet minimum duration rules for the new proportion of the apprenticeship.

    Version 1 of the 20/21 Apprenticeship Funding Rules are now available on GOV.UK

    The funding rules still haven’t changed to include that Withdrawal type 40 yet.

     
    #455495

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    That’s interesting; a transfer back to the same programme, but with a gap. Much easier to manage than a Break. We’ll wait and see if this is added to the list of minimum duration exceptions. Keep hold of that email in case it isn’t!

    Also “make is clearer” = total change from what we said before.

     
    #455508

    mel_aspinall
    Participant

    I also had that email JackB!

     
    #455514

    mel_aspinall
    Participant

    Also, it is in the rules P323-325

     
    #455516

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    Thanks Mel 🙂

    Yet again, the guidance using the term “break”, when they don’t mean a “Break in Learning”, it’s really misleading.

    Why is this bit only required when there is a gap and a transfer?

    ensure that a change of employer is declared on the apprenticeship service against the existing record to ensure that the same course is carried over to the new record one the apprentice restarts with their new employer.

    Why can’t we still just create a new DAS record as usual? If we’re doing that where there’s a gap, why not when there’s no gap? It doesn’t specify that this is just for non-levy payers (where I can see why that would be important).

     
    #455521

    mel_aspinall
    Participant

    What I’m struggling with is would the new employer, if they are SME, have to be on the apprenticeship service or can we just invoice them as normal until we are told everyone has to move to AS?

     
    #455528

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    I’d assume that’s fine for changes before April. However, if the new employer wants the new employee incentive, they’d have to be on the AS. Would a change of employer apprentice be eligible for the new employee incentive with their new employer?

     
    #455543

    mel_aspinall
    Participant

    That is a really good point – hadn’t thought about that about a change of employer apprentice and incentive!

     
    #455547

    mel_aspinall
    Participant

    @RuthCJ

    If we are now using a withdrawal code of 40 (effectively a transfer), will there not be a rule violation that we are transferring to the same aims – same everything essentially – same provider? Just seems a little bit illogical to me.

     
    #455610

    steveh
    Participant

    Heh, this is basically the same conversation we had last year about using 1&8 though, isn’t it? They’ll change/break the validation rules to make this work…

     
    #455612

    Jaci
    Participant

    Do anyone know if they have republished the BIL flowchart?

     
    #455989
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