Tagged: Off the job learning
The make this even more of a farce. Below is the reply i got from the service desk on Friday
Opened: 25/03/2019 14:00:38 GMT
Title: OTJ Training – Mismatching guidence
Resolution: Good afternoon
I have spoken to the Apprenticeships policy team, as follows:
The off-the-job section in the funding rules is not intended to be read in isolation; the 30 hours is referenced in the minimum duration section. The guidance was produced to complement the ESFA rules and to further clarify areas that have prompted questions since the introduction of the policy.
To be clear, the minimum requirement is that 20% of the apprentice’s hours over the planned duration of the programme (duration = 30 hours x length of apprenticeship) is spent on off-the-job training. The duration should be extended for those working less than 30 hours as explained in the funding rules.
If providers have been delivering more than the required minimum then this is perfectly fine; delivery should reflect the needs of the apprentice, the 20% is the minimum delivery requirement and some apprentices may require more.
Thank you for contacting the ESFA Service Centre
Michael Smith (Education and Skills Funding Agency)
So the service is also giving out incorrect information based on the redacted statement. I would put what i really think, but i fear this would not be very forum friendly and also be redacted 🙂
CheersApril 1, 2019 at 8:41 am #360735
The ESFA Service Centre advice was correct at the time but was superseded by the guidance issued on the 29th March:
6:56pm, 29 March 2019: Updated the off-the-job guidance attachement – In response to feedback since this document was issued on Friday 22 March 2019, paragraph 69 and Annex A are redacted and under review, in relation to the use of 30 hours. Providers should continue to work to the apprenticeship funding rules and not change any training plans with learners. We will publish a further update next week.
HTHApril 1, 2019 at 8:54 am #360773
That was 2pm…..
The statement about 30 hours maximum is still on the web site as part of the commitment form and I dont think the guidance was redacted….it was highlighted. Redacted means you cant see it but the rule would still apply…..I feel another series of myth busters coming on…..April 1, 2019 at 8:55 am #360775
Yes, they did miss note 5 on the commitment statement but have asked us not to make any changes until this issue is clarified.
The funding rules requirement is unfair in that based on contracted hours of 8 hr day the Apprentice had to undertake 2hrs OJT while those on a 6 hr day only had to complete 1.5 hrs OJT even though for those undertaking a Framework the stipulated OTJ GLH were the same.
I think the 30 hrs for a full time Apprentice was aimed at resolving this but now the ESFA are unsure if is actual policy as it conflicts with all previous guidance and the funding rules.
It will be interesting to see how they now resolve this.April 1, 2019 at 9:19 am #360850
Can we swear on this forum?
Genuinely sick of the complete inability of the ESFA to put together guidance that is consistent, let alone actually correct.
When training providers are seeing funding being taken back off them due to not meeting minimum requirements on OTJ hours, for the ESFA to issue guidance on the calculation of OTJ that is full-on wrong is beyond a joke.
And yeah, highlighting something is basically the exact opposite of redacting it. If they can’t even get something that bloody simple right…April 1, 2019 at 12:33 pm #360936
Martin, they have asked us not to make any changes but does that mean if you always used 30 hours then is it OK to continue…..
And the OTJ has always been unfair…..if you do the standard in 1 year you have to do 47X8 (or is it 6) hrs OTJ. If you do the same standard in 18 months you have to do 70×8 hrs….there is no logic to the rule.
StewartApril 1, 2019 at 1:16 pm #360946
Basically just do everything we have been doing before the 22nd of March before the document was published, wait for the new ‘guidance’ then go from there will be the safest thing to do.
This is also what the redacted statement is telling us to do.
April 1, 2019 at 1:25 pm #360951
- This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Matt Collishaw.
And just for good measure they have used different terms over the last couple of years. OTJ must be done in paid hours (which could include holidays) but P58 says apprenticeship must be completed in working hours. That could include lunch hours which are unpaid but technically in your working hours. I am sure the clarification statement will all be very clear…..April 1, 2019 at 1:27 pm #360956
Worth pointing out that when Nick asked a room of 400 MIS staff on Friday if anyone used 30 hours as a maximum, nobody put their hand up…April 1, 2019 at 1:28 pm #360960
If you have used 30 hrs this will be because this is the contract hrs for the Apprentice so would be correct in any event. It is my experience that Providers have not used 30 hrs as a basis for the calculation in the past and what Steve has said seems to confirm this.
The funding for a Standard is derived from the Standard contents over its specified typical timescale but Providers may assess a shorter or longer duration based on the initial assessment reflecting the training the individual Apprentice needs and hence the OJT hrs in the commitment statement.
Where a learner completes early as long as the OJT up to this point equates to 20% then the ESFA have said this is acceptable for meeting the 20% OJT required.
I see your point regarding working hrs as against paid hrs, but I have always accepted that breaks are excluded from normal working hrs and equate to paid hrs.
HTHApril 1, 2019 at 3:24 pm #360991
I see they have reversed the guidance and it is now back to the Off-the-job training must make up at least 20% of the apprentice’s contracted hours, over the total duration of the apprentice’s planned training period.
So the 30 hrs for a full time learner is out and you must enter their average or contracted or paid hrs.April 3, 2019 at 3:17 pm #361561
OMG I actually might scream, martin can you please confirm where this has been updatedApril 3, 2019 at 3:20 pm #361563
It’s on the same page as the guidance was initially published – https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apprenticeships-off-the-job-trainingApril 3, 2019 at 3:24 pm #361565
I feel for the ESFA – they messed up in the process of trying to be helpful with v2 of the guidance and template.
What they now need to do is admit they messed up and apologise – then it will be clear what happened and we can all move on
Also hope it doesn’t stop them trying to be helpful in future
They will be reading all these comments – so they could start by putting a comment on this thread.April 3, 2019 at 3:27 pm #361567
Commitment statement note 5: The provider should enter the number of hours the apprentice works on average each week.
OTJ Training guide Paragraph 68:The 20% off-the-job requirement is based on the apprentice’s paid hours, over the planned duration of the training period of the apprenticeship.
No mention of contracted hours! Follow this to the letter, and you cannot know what the requirement will be until you reach the end of the practical period, and can calculate the average.
This is crazy.April 3, 2019 at 3:38 pm #361573
Average, contract and working hrs all the same, as this must be calculated at the start you cannot know what the average will be, and you can only base the calculation on contract or working hrs which are the same.
If they complete early you can recalculate up to the end of the practical period to check, they have met the requirement.April 3, 2019 at 3:50 pm #361575
I cant believe there is no apology or direct email to all providers. There are some providers who have used 30 hours so when will this change be implemented from?
Martin, you used the words contracted hours which is different from paid hours and different from working hours which have all been used. The 20% is in paid hours which does include holidays. The rules say that holidays are excluded from the calculation but if an apprentice did work in the holidays then it will be in paid hours but not working hours. I am sure we’ll have a myth buster in 6 months time.
It now makes no sense to have a standard holiday deduction. It should be whatever holidays the apprentice gets.
Nick, you seem very understanding. The lack of a proper notification to providers and the lack of an apology says it all to me. I wont hold my breath for an ESFA comment.
And what is that survey??
StewartApril 3, 2019 at 3:51 pm #361577
It was brought to our attention that there was an error in paragraph 69 of the guide. We have reviewed this text, updated the documents accordingly on the off-the-job training page and apologise for any confusion.April 3, 2019 at 3:52 pm #361579
Hi Martin – oh great – I trusted SteveH when he said they hadn’t. Where does it say this?April 3, 2019 at 3:53 pm #361581
Nick, there have been too many recent examples of the ESFA issuing guidance without checking it for accuracy or consistency with *other* official guidance for anybody in the sector to feel anything other than frustration at this.
It’s not good enough and it needs to stop happening. We need to be able to trust that official documentation is correct and that would appear to require the ESFA to address their processes to include some form of basic proof-reading.
Proof-reading at *their* end of things, that is, not relying on training providers to do it for them.April 3, 2019 at 3:54 pm #361585
10. Information: apprenticeships off-the-job training guidance, commitment statement template and survey
On Friday 22 March we published version 2 of the off-the-job training guide and a compliant commitment statement template.
It was brought to our attention that there was an error in paragraph 69 of the guide. We have reviewed this text, updated the documents accordingly on the off-the-job training page and apologise for any confusion.
To help us understand the availability of off-the-job training information and how the policy is working in practice, we encourage you to complete this short survey by Friday 12 April 2019April 3, 2019 at 3:59 pm #361590
Where’s that Martin?April 3, 2019 at 4:01 pm #361593
Point 10 in the link below…April 3, 2019 at 4:03 pm #361595
I have not come across Apprentices who get paid during their lunch breaks most contacts seem to exclude this from their paid hours, that is the reason I say that in practice they are the same.
Statutory holidays are excluded in the calculation.
HTHApril 3, 2019 at 4:07 pm #361597
I should point out that my request that the ESFA apologise was at 3:24pm and the apology was published at 3:41pm
Not at all saying my tweet and request is the reason – just that I was right at the time 🙂April 3, 2019 at 4:11 pm #361599
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