Do we or don't we?!

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Home Forums Data issues Do we or don't we?!


This topic contains 5 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  jessicar 4 months ago.

Viewing 6 posts - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)
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  • BenC

    Do apprentices need to log off the job hours with a stipulation that these were undertaken within their normal and contractual working hours. At present apprentices log their off the job training but do not specify this.

    One auditor did not require this but the other one did – has anyone else been able to get a definitive answer on this?



    Martin West

    Hi Ben,
    See the following
    The funding rules require
    P50 Off-the-job training does not include:
    P50.1 training to acquire knowledge, skills and behaviours that are not required in the apprenticeship standard;
    P50.2 progress reviews or on-programme assessment required for an apprenticeship standard; or
    P50.3 training which takes place outside the apprentice’s normal working hours.

    By normal working hours we mean the hours for which the apprentice would normally be paid, excluding overtime.

    The following indicates that as long as they are paid and given time off in lieu then OTJ hours outside of their normal working hours may be included.

    Q and A from the OTJ guidance
    4 “Why must off-the-job training be conducted during the apprentice’s normal working hours?”
    An apprenticeship is a work-based programme. The training is required to help the apprentice become fully occupationally competent in the workplace. Therefore, it is reasonable that the apprenticeship should be delivered during the apprentice’s normal working hours. It is not appropriate, and would be unfair, to expect an apprentice to undertake the apprenticeship in their own time, in addition to their job role.

    If training must, by exception, take place outside of the apprentice’s normal working hours, e.g. in an evening or at a weekend for an apprentice that normally works Monday to Friday between 9-5, we would expect this to be recognised, for example through time off in lieu or by an additional payment to the apprentice.



    The question posed is really about what the ESFA’s requirements are in recording the OTJ hours; one auditor accepted them with no declaration that the hours recorded were in normal working hours and another auditor from a different auditors DID expect and ask for, such a declaration accompanying the attendance records?

    Thanks for your response.



    Hi Ben,

    We have just added a declaration to the end of all our training logs that is signed by both the employer and the apprentice at gateway that says:

    This is a true and accurate representation of my off-the-job training activity throughout my apprenticeship programme
    Signed: (apprentice) Date:

    All off-the-job activity was undertaken during contracted paid hours or compensated accordingly
    Signed: (employer) Date:




    Martin West

    I would agree with the auditor who said you need to include this declaration.



    Auditors aren’t always consistent and some pay more attention to detail than others especially across different auditing firms.

    Not sure if its still the same now, but of the three auditing forms who performed audits for the ESFA, one was very strict, the others not so much. They all seem to have their own sticking points too.

    Internal auditors are a different story altogether….

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