End date on the DAS

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This topic contains 15 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Martin West 3 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • Sarah C
    Participant

    Hello,

    Now the guidance has changed and we need to record an expected end date for when an apprentice finishes their learning and then a separate achievement date at the point of the EPA completion, does anybody know which date should be put on the DAS for an apprentice end date?

    Any help much appreciated!

    Sarah

     
    #399401

    jaynemacleod
    Participant

    I was listening to a webinar today and the same question was asked. The presenter wasn’t 100% sure and is going to come back to us. I have also asked one of our employers to raise the question with the help-desk.

    I would guess that in order for the data to match between ILR and DAS it has to be the Planned End Date (end of learning) as we aren’t recording the end date anywhere on the ILR at present.

     
    #399722

    jaynemacleod
    Participant

    We have had answers back from the ESFA help desk and the Apprenticeship Service. The answers are below – they are different!

    We are going back to both – Can anyone else help???

    thanks

    Jayne

    From the Apprenticeship Service –

    We discussed whether or not the planned training end date on the Apprenticeship Service (AS) record should include the End Point Assessment (EPA).

    I confirmed that the end date needs to include the EPA, as the apprenticeship is not complete until the final assessment has been completed. As such, the planned training end date on the AS record should not be before the EPA.

    From ESFA helpdesk –

    The Learning planned end date for an apprenticeship standard that started before 1 August 2019, must include both the training and end point assessment period.
    The Learning planned end date for an apprenticeship standard that started on or after 1 August 2019, must only include training period and not the end point assessment period.

    The planned end date entered in the ILR needs to match the date recorded on Apprenticeship Service.

    We hope it helps.

     
    #401377

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    I expect the AS answer was related to an Apprentice who started before 1 August 2019 where as the ESFA have given the definition that applies both those who started prior to and after the start of the current funding year.
    HTH

     
    #401401

    Martin Gallagher
    Participant

    Hi all,

    I just queried this with the Apprenticeship Service, my query was as follows:

    Please can you confirm that for apprentices starting after 1 August 2019 that the planned end dates on DAS should not include the EPA period (as per in the ILR)?

    The reply I got back was that end date on DAS should include EPA regardless of when they start:

    Thank you for contacting the National Apprenticeship Service, my name is ######.

    I understand from your email that you are wanting to confirm what the planned end date should reflect on the Apprenticeship Service account.

    The planned end date on the AS account should reflect the whole apprenticeship. This should include the practical training period and the End Point Assessment period. Please be aware that the funding rules guidance states this:

    E128.1 met the minimum duration of the apprenticeship (see paragraph E30). You must ensure that the entire duration of the apprenticeship standard for both training and end-point assessment a minimum of 372 days to be eligible for funding.

    You can find this link information in the link below.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/821577/1920_Employer_Rules_Version_1.0_FINAL.pdf

    The ILR is where you would further break down the timescales for the apprentice. For example the practical training period and the EPA period.

    This appears to directly contradict the ESFA’s guidance to @jaynemacleod above that:
    The planned end date entered in the ILR needs to match the date recorded on Apprenticeship Service.

    Has anyone managed to get to the bottom of this one yet?

     
    #408258

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    1.The ESFA have said ‘The planned end date entered in the ILR needs to match the date recorded on Apprenticeship Service’
    This is incorrect for any Apprentice who has started from 1 Aug 2019 as only the Practical period is now recorded in the ILR.

    It is unfortunate that each system uses different naming conventions
    In the apprenticeship agreement it is ‘Start date of apprenticeship’, ‘Start date of practical period’, ‘end date of practical period’ and ‘End date of apprenticeship’.
    On the Apprenticeship Service it is Planned training start date and Planned training finish date.
    On the ILR it is ‘Learning start date’, ‘Learning planned end date’.

    My understanding is that the ESFA were incorrect in 1 as this was the situation for starts prior to 1 Aug 2019. The AS end date includes EPA but the ILR now only records the practical period excluding the EPA.

     
    #408280

    Emma M
    Participant

    Hi,

    I took some advice from the service desk about this ages ago, and was told that for all starts after 1st August 2019 that the planned end date in the AS must match the planned end date in the ILR, so I have to admit that’s what I’ve been doing what they said and putting in matching durations in each. I have to admit, the advice sounded legitimate as you’d assume if the dates were different you’d get a data lock?

    Martin – has your comment above from the ESFA come from them directly recently? I can’t find anything in the guidance to say that the AS and ILR need different dates in them and I’m worried I’ve done it wrong now!

     
    #408301

    Georgia Leigh Smyth
    Participant

    I spoke to the AS yesterday about this and i was advised in short that the ILR and DAS don’t need to match and we’ll be paid over what’s recorded on the ILR …

    Thank you for contacting the National Apprenticeship Service, my name is Daniel. I understand that you had initially emailed us query the end date which should be entered on the Apprenticeship Service account, as there was some confusion regarding the changes as to how the end dates are recorded within the ILR. Following discussions with my colleagues about this, you’d now like some clarification regarding how the payments will be processed.

    As explained by my colleague the end date in the Apprenticeship service account is only an estimate and does not match against the ILR. This will not therefore cause any data mismatches, or datalocks.

    The purpose of the end date on the Apprenticeship service account is principally to prevent a learner being on two apprenticeship programmes in the same time period.

    As payments are calculated based on the information in the ILR, an ‘incorrect’ end date in the Apprenticeship Service wouldn’t affect the payment schedule, except where a ‘Stop’ has been place on the record incorrectly.

    This means that while the apprenticeship service account is live, and there are no datalock errors, a learner with a planned end date on the ILR at 15 months would be paid over 15 instalments, regardless of the apprenticeship length in the apprenticeship service account.

    You can refer to the ILR specification guidance and the Apprenticeship Technical Funding Rules below for further guidance:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/800443/ILR_Specification_2019-2020v2.pdf

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/834017/Apprenticeships_technical_funding_guide_2019_to_2020_V2_Sep_2019.pdf

    Paragraph E16 in the technical funding rules does explain that ‘You give us information about apprentices and their learning using the Individualised Learner Record (ILR) and the Earnings Adjustment Statement (EAS). We use this information to work out the funding you have earned for delivering this learning.’

     
    #408307

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    The data lock validation does not include a check for planned end dates.
    The number of monthly payments is calculated from the ILR values (see below) and not from the dates on the Apprenticeship Service account which may include a different end date to the ILR as the AS end date includes the EPA period.

    From the Apprenticeship technical funding guide September 2019: version 2
    44. We spread these instalments equally over the number of planned months for the apprenticeship programme aim, based on whether the apprentice is in learning on each census date (the last calendar day of every month). The planned number of months is calculated from the ‘Learning start date’ and the ‘Learning planned end date’ in the ILR.

     
    #408309

    Emma M
    Participant

    Hi,

    Thank you! So would it be a good idea to go through the DAS and adjust these dates to include the expected EPA period?

     
    #408311

    Georgia Leigh Smyth
    Participant

    Hi Emma,

    That’s what we’ve done so that the date on the DAS matches what the employer is expecting as the total duration of the apprenticeship, but have amended our paperwork so that they know the payments will be split over the practical period rather than the full length.

    🙂

     
    #408313

    Martin Gallagher
    Participant

    Hi all,

    Thanks for the info/suggestions and sharing my confusion. I’ve queried this with the ESFA just to be safe, but would agree with Martin W’s point that the ESFA saying the end date in ILR and DAS must match cannot be true for learners starting after 1 August 2019. It’s good to know there’s no DLOCK error on end dates.

    Emma – all I can confirm is that the AS have told me (today) the end date on DAS should include the EPA (for apprentices starting before or after 1 August 2019), whereas in the ILR it must not cover the EPA for apprentices starting after 1 August 2019. I’d suggest you amend the end dates on DAS to include the EPA period.

    Thanks,

    Martin

     
    #408329

    Emma M
    Participant

    Thanks everyone. I’m going through updating the dates now – I got the first 5 done and all of a sudden I’m getting an error when I try and change the finish date saying “The end date must not be in the future”. Has anyone seen this before and know what it means?

     
    #408345

    Emma M
    Participant

    Response:

    Hello Emma,

    Thank you for contacting the National Apprenticeship Service, my name is Jessica. I understand from your email that you are attempting to amend the planned end date for 2 learners and receiving an error message stating “The end date must be in the future”.

    This error occurs because after a successful data match with the provider, you can only amend the planned end date once in the following manner:

    a. The planned end date can only be amended backwards (i.e. into the past)
    b. You can only amend the planned end date once it is passed (i.e. you will only now be able to amend the planned end date once Aug 2020 has passed).

    I can advise that the original records may have been able to be amended because it was before a successful data match with the provider (a data match happens once the provider submits data for the learner on their system, after this point most of the record details are locked in and cannot be amended).

    I can advise that even if the planned end date it wrong, as it is only wrong by a few months this will not cause an issue so can be left as August 2020. Planned end dates are an estimated time of completion and don’t have to be definitive; an apprentice can complete before or after their planned end date without an issue being caused concerning, for example, payments being released.

    I hope you have found this information useful, Emma.

     
    #408355

    cmarshall
    Participant

    Hi sorry to jump in on the conversation late….

    So, am I right in thinking that we need to enter the training end date into the ILR and the EPA end date in the DAS and that the two dates don’t have to match?

    Thanks,
    Claire

     
    #408745

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    That’s correct.

     
    #408758
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