Gap in Change of Employer

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This topic contains 45 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Martin West 5 hours, 49 minutes ago.

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  • Ruth CJ
    Participant

    This is very interesting!

    P264 An apprentice has to be employed continuously for the duration of the apprenticeship.
    If their employment is terminated, the individual cannot continue with their
    apprenticeship (with the exception of redundancy) where the break has been longer
    than 30 days. When employment or an apprenticeship agreement has ended
    (resignation, dismissal or any other action by the apprentice or the employer that
    results in the apprenticeship agreement ending) and new employment hasn’t
    commenced within 30 days, you must notify us that the apprentice has left in line with
    P285. Where a new employer is found and employment starts within 30 days, you
    must manage this using a break in learning to ensure funds are not paid when the
    apprentice is not employed.

    Does anyone have the wording from version 1 to compare? I never save old copies. So we can use a BIL for up to 30 days to cover a change of employer with a gap. This is really good news!

     
    #419456

    Kate
    Participant

    Hi Ruth

    It was P249 & said:

    An apprentice has to be employed continuously for the duration of the apprenticeship. if their employment is terminated, the individual cannot continue with their apprenticeship (with the exception of redundancy). When employment or an apprenticeship agreement has ended (resignation, dismissal or any other action by the apprentice or the employer that results in the apprenticeship agreement ending) you must notify us that the apprentice has left in line with P270.

    What isn’t clear is the definition of a BIL is a break of at least 4 weeks so I can’t see how we can use a BIL to cover this change?

    Thanks

     
    #419462

    cjs1
    Participant

    So how would this be coded?

    Input the BIL when the 1st emp ends – but then what?

    Do a restart and a Change of Emp both with the same date?
    Or restart at the 1st Emp and then change of Emp from the next day?

    Kate – its a tight one! Basically says that you must start with the new Emp on day 29 or day 30 after ending with the 1st Emp!

     
    #419467

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    They have not updated the BIL flow chart for this but it can still be used where the BIL is less than 4 weeks as the provider must manage this using a break in learning to ensure funds are not paid when the apprentice is not employed.
    HTH

     
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Martin West.
    #419468

    Kate
    Participant

    Hi all

    So how would we deal with someone that has a break of 15 days – they probably would still continue attending college! We wouldn’t treat this as a BIL as a BIL is a break of at least 4 weeks as per the glossary in the funding rules & the flow chart confirms that a break of less than 4 weeks does not need to be recorded in the ILR.

    This new funding rule appears to contradict the rule about a BIL. I agree that in principle a short term break of up to 30 days between employers is entirely reasonable as individuals do decide to take holiday etc when changing. We should surely be able to just record a change in employer of up to 30 days as we would with a residual fee in the TNP3/4 and end the original employer on the date they left them and start the new on the day they start with them.

    Sorry if I’m missing something!

    Thanks

    Kate

     
    #419491

    steveh
    Participant

    It’s a good thing we can’t post gifs here or I’d just post 150 variations of heads banging on desks…

     
    #419493

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    I think you are all missing the point as the change is to allow for a BIL where there is a gap in employment and allows for funding to be suspended where the learner is not still employed on the last day in the month which would be less than 4 weeks.
    But they do need to update the BIL flow chart to match.

     
    #419495

    jessicar
    Participant

    Great news. They ve obviously kept this close to their chests as at the apprenticeship audit conferences in December, this wasn’t even mentioned.

    So if an apprentice loses job, we record as a break in learning
    On the 32nd day we find new employment, so guessing we have to unpick the break in learning and change to a withdrawal?

    Can we still record the new apprenticeship enrolment as a restart as per para 453 of provider support manual (where its recorded as a withdrawal rather than break)? Means we don’t have to do a min duration of a year if so.

     
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  jessicar.
    #419502

    steveh
    Participant

    Also, given these rules apply from 1 August 2019, I assume we can backdate any withdrawals we’ve processed over the last four months?

    Still, at least it will improve the Achievement Rates (is it just coincidence that this came out the same day as the provisional QARs?)…

     
    #419508

    jessicar
    Participant

    @kate if there was a gap of 15 days think we would do something along the lines of

    Apprentice loses job
    Apprenticeship enrolment – recorded as break in learning
    Create a non funded enrolment – to start on their next attendance after losing employment – mainly used to record register marks and to ensure not generating apprenticeship funding if this crosses over a month end.

    Apprentice finds new job (on 15th day)
    Apprenticeship enrolment – open up a new enrolment
    Non funded enrolment – close off with an Actual end date of their last attendance before starting new employment.

    We allow apprentices to carry on attending classes until new employment is sought (up to a certain point), so from their point of view nothing really changes, but from our point of view we turn on and off the apprenticeship funding to line up with their employment status.

     
    #419510

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    I agree that the new rule contradicts the 4 week BIL limit, but I think it supersedes that. They’ve just added that we can do this, they have probably just not realised the knock on effect on the 4 week bit.

    cjs1 – You’ve do a temp withdrawal for the apprenticeship where you know they’re planning to go to another employer, but not immediately. You’d close the employment history record at that point. When they restart, you’d treat it exactly like any other restart, it would just be a lot sooner than a usual restart. It must be several days away from the withdrawal, or you’d have just recorded a regular change or employer, which doesn’t involve closing the enrolment. If they didn’t find a new employer within 30 days, you’d switch the temp withdrawal to a regular withdrawal as usual.

    Kate – Yes, that would be easier to just not record the BIL. However, what happens if they leave the first employer on 15th Jan, and don’t start with the second employer until 14th Feb, who pays for January? Do you lie and say they changed employer in Feb, and make the first employer pay for an extra month, or do you lie and say they started with the new employer in Jan, and make them pay an extra month? If you recorded the end date of the first employer as Jan, and the start of the new employer as Feb, I can’t remember which employer would get charged, but it doesn’t just not take it from either. We did this by accident once.

    Like jessicar, we’d allow them to attend classes in the middle if they wanted.

     
    #419514

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    Oh, and yes, it would be coded like any other restart after a BIL, so wouldn’t have to be a year. That goes some way to resolving the issue I have with stopping apprentices from finishing an apprenticeship when they leave an employer suddenly.

     
    #419516

    jessicar
    Participant

    HI Ruth,

    Just amended my post from above:
    Can we still record the new apprenticeship enrolment as a restart as per para 453 of provider support manual (where its recorded as a withdrawal rather than break)? Means we don’t have to do a min duration of a year if so.

    Any thoughts?

     
    #419519

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    If you’ve recorded the first one as a full withdrawal, you do code the new period as a restart, but you don’t put the original start date on it, and it does have to be a year.

     
    #419521

    steveh
    Participant

    if the “withdrawal” has happened after 1 August, I’d be going back and making it a BiL!!!

     
    #419523

    Martin West
    Participant

    There is also contradiction in the following from page 49.
    A break in learning should not be recorded:
    P265.2 When employment or an apprenticeship agreement has ended (redundancy, resignation, dismissal or any other action by the apprentice or the employer that results in the apprenticeship agreement ending). Where an apprentice has been made redundant you should refer to the redundancy section in the rules (see paragraphs P271 to P273).

     
    #419525

    JackB
    Participant

    Ruth_CJ – However, what happens if they leave the first employer on 15th Jan, and don’t start with the second employer until 14th Feb, who pays for January?

    We had ESFA helpdesk confirm in such circumstances the old employer would end up paying for the missing month, but this was a query about a 1 week gap.

     
    #419527

    Spats
    Participant

    Just a word of caution on this, but remember how relieved we all were when the guidance around OTJ calculations changed and said that you worked it out based on a maximum of 30 contracted hours a week? And how the ESFA then went back and changed it back to what it was previously a few weeks later when they finally understood that they’d screwed up the calculations?

    Are we potentially in a similar situation with this?

     
    #419529

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi Jack,
    That is why you can use a BIL for up to 30 days then there will be no payment for the missing month.

    Spats, No

     
    #419531

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    Thanks Jack, that’s useful info. It doesn’t really matter the size of the gap, if it crosses a month end it causes a problem. If we had one with a Saturday on the last day of the month, and a Sunday on the first day of the month, the first employer clearly should pay for that month, as they were there for the entire working month. There would be a two day gap crossing the month end, but if it automatically charges the first employer, that’s fine.

    But yes, as Martin points out, a proper BIL avoids the issue.

    It often takes them a while to spot all the rules that become contradicted by a new rule. I’m not especially worried, but someone should probably report these to the ESFA.

     
    #419534

    Kate
    Participant

    I’ve got a query in with the ESFA to clarify the contradiction and advise how exactly they see this working.

    Will update you all when (if) I get a response!

     
    #419633

    jessicar
    Participant

    Are queries now relating to Apprenticeship funding rules being directed to the Manage Apprenticeships help desk now?

    I sent something into top the usual ESFA help desk about OTJ hours, only for it to be forwarded to the Apprenticeship Service Help desk (which is better anyway as at least they update you on your ticket via email).

    Not sure if it was a one off, or if this is now where we should be sending Apprenticeship related queries?

     
    #419649

    Martin West
    Participant

    Any queries relating to the funding rules should only be sent to the ESFA help desk and not the Apprenticeship Service Help Desk.

     
    #419653

    jessicar
    Participant

    The ESFA forwarded my query onto the Apprenticeship Service Helpdesk and it related to the funding rules, and wasn’t a technical query.

     
    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  jessicar.
    #419655

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    The other thing I thought of this morning is what price we put on the restart. Normally, a restart has the full original price, and their systems just know that you’ve already had some of the money, and will split the remainder over the duration of the new period. Will it do the same if the employer has changed? Should we record the full original price, knowing that the systems will work it out and charge the new employer the correct amount, or should we record the new price that we’ve negotiated with the new employer? I would assume the latter, but wouldn’t be 100% confident that they wouldn’t try and take a chunk off that price before spreading the rest across the new period.

     
    #419658
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