Gap in Change of Employer

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This topic contains 45 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Martin West 4 hours, 51 minutes ago.

Viewing 21 posts - 26 through 46 (of 46 total)
  • Author
    Posts

  • Martin West
    Participant

    Hi Ruth,
    You would follow the guidance as for any returning from a BIL.
    HTH

     
    #419662

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    We’ve already established that this new rule has rendered several other rules now wrong, so it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that this is the same. You think we have to record the full price again? Are you 100% confident that won’t end up charging the new employer the whole amount? It would get capped anyway, but that could create a requirement to claim 5% of the excess. I guess we could just wait and see what happens if we get one. I very much doubt the Service Desk will know the answer to this.

     
    #419666

    AShep219
    Participant

    Hi All,

    What document is this paragraph in please? I cannot seem to find it.

    Thank you

     
    #419668

    Martin West
    Participant
    #419670

    Spats
    Participant

    jessicar:

    The ESFA forwarded my query onto the Apprenticeship Service Helpdesk and it related to the funding rules, and wasn’t a technical query.

    Yeah, I’ve had similar happen to me twice in the last month. Two queries about ILR fields, both forwarded by the ESFA helpdesk to the Apprenticeship Service.

     
    #419676

    jessicar
    Participant

    @Ruth CJ
    Surely it would just be like any change of employer, negotiate a new price taking into account prior learning and record a TNP 03?

    Seems that the ESFA have made one decision to clarify a point, but not considered all the other paragraphs of the funding rules where this also is relevant. Guessing it may be a while before they update provider support manual/apprenticeship technical guidance to answer all of our queries!

     
    #419681

    steveh
    Participant

    yes, i *think* they’re passing queries around (I had one like this as well), hopefully to reduce the response time, but we’ll see…

     
    #419686

    Kate
    Participant

    Yep my query has been passed on to the Apprenticeship Service.

     
    #419690

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    jessicar – Yes, that’s what I thought about the price. Martin is advocating using the full price again, as that “would follow the guidance as for any returning from a BIL”. The trouble is, this is both a BIL and a change of employer, and the guidance about TNP for each is differnt, so which do we follow?

     
    #419693

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi Ruth,
    The PSM does support both the original price and a new price.
    674. Record the price details as required using AFinType = TNP and the applicable codes. The price recorded on the new programme aim should be the same as the price prior to the break in learning unless you and the employer have negotiated a new price for the programme.
    HTH

     
    #419702

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    Ok, I’d missed that bit. So yes, record just the reduced price.

     
    #419727

    mel_aspinall
    Participant

    @ruthCJ

    Just coming back to your discussion about crossing months where it becomes problematic.

    If we have an apprentice that leaves an employer on say 31st of the month and starts with the new one on the 1st, are we expected to put them on a BIL for this because of how the funding works? I’m just thinking of the questions I’m going to have to field from folk about paperwork etc to process the BIL.

    TIA,

    Mel

     
    #421084

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi Mel,
    One of the purpose of the limited break for change of employer is to make sure funding is not drawn down where a learner is not employed on the last day of the month, if the leave on any date prior to the last day of the month and start within 30 days they will need a BIL this will also ensure the original duration is maintained.

    In your example of 31st and then starts on the first the next month there is no break but if they started on the 2nd they would have a break and you would use a BIL to maintain the duration of learning even though no funding suspension is required.
    HTH

     
    #421102

    mel_aspinall
    Participant

    Hi Martin,

    That’s great. Thanks so much for your help.

    Mel

     
    #421104

    Emma Ford
    Participant

    Hi everyone,

    I’m not sure if this helps but just for your reference, this is the response I have received from Apprenticeship Service Support this afternoon in relation to paragraphs 264 – 265.2 being totally contradictory of each other.

    “Funding rule 264 is a new rule introduced in January 2020, to allow flexibility where a learner has left employment for reasons other than redundancy. Where the break in employment is less than 30 days, you can record a break in learning for the learner.

    It would appear that paragraph 265.2 has not been updated to take account of paragraph 264, but this will be raised with the relevant specialist team. You should treat paragraph 264 as accurate.

    To deal with your later point, yes if a learner was unemployed for 5-10 days for reasons other than redundancy a break in learning should be recorded.

    I will also raise the point that paragraph 264 is not echoed in the flowchart”.

    My initial query was raised with the ESFA service desk who then sent it to Apprenticeship Service Support even though it was a Funding Rules related matter.

    The service desk stated that:

    “The Apprenticeship Service team are the specialist team for anything related to apprenticeships or the apprenticeship service site and as such your enquiry regarding Apprenticeship Funding Rules was forwarded to them to action”.

    Hope this information is useful, if anybody has been given any contradictory advice it would be interesting to know.

    Emma

     
    #421111

    AShep219
    Participant

    Hi,

    Please can someone clarify who this rule applies to?
    Is it only for starts from August 2019, or is it for any learner (including starts before August 2019) who change employer after August 2019?

    Thanks

     
    #421213

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    From 1 August 2019 only, as the previous funding year is closed it would not be possible to apply this to any learners prior to this date.
    HTH

     
    #421223

    AShep219
    Participant

    Hi Martin,

    I didn’t mean to apply this rule retrospectively.

    For example, if we have an apprentice who started in the 18/19 funding year, but left an employer and started with another 2 weeks later in this funding year, would this new rule be able to apply?

    Thanks

     
    #421234

    Martin West
    Participant

    It is the rule that applies from 1 August 2019 not the original start date of the Apprentice.

     
    #421242

    Jaci
    Participant

    Thanks Martin – I was thinking that the rule may only apply from January!

     
    #421293

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    The changes to the funding do have dates for reservation of funds (9/1/2020) and Transfer of levy (2/1/2020) but has no date for the change of employer gap and as such 1/8/2019 would apply.
    HTH

     
    #421316
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