You would follow the guidance as for any returning from a BIL.
HTHJanuary 10, 2020 at 10:30 am #419662
We’ve already established that this new rule has rendered several other rules now wrong, so it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that this is the same. You think we have to record the full price again? Are you 100% confident that won’t end up charging the new employer the whole amount? It would get capped anyway, but that could create a requirement to claim 5% of the excess. I guess we could just wait and see what happens if we get one. I very much doubt the Service Desk will know the answer to this.January 10, 2020 at 10:37 am #419666
What document is this paragraph in please? I cannot seem to find it.
Thank youJanuary 10, 2020 at 10:44 am #419668
P264, EP249, E235 in the funding rules
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apprenticeship-funding-rules#the-latest-rules-2019-to-2020January 10, 2020 at 10:50 am #419670
The ESFA forwarded my query onto the Apprenticeship Service Helpdesk and it related to the funding rules, and wasn’t a technical query.
Yeah, I’ve had similar happen to me twice in the last month. Two queries about ILR fields, both forwarded by the ESFA helpdesk to the Apprenticeship Service.January 10, 2020 at 11:01 am #419676
Surely it would just be like any change of employer, negotiate a new price taking into account prior learning and record a TNP 03?
Seems that the ESFA have made one decision to clarify a point, but not considered all the other paragraphs of the funding rules where this also is relevant. Guessing it may be a while before they update provider support manual/apprenticeship technical guidance to answer all of our queries!January 10, 2020 at 11:08 am #419681
yes, i *think* they’re passing queries around (I had one like this as well), hopefully to reduce the response time, but we’ll see…January 10, 2020 at 11:12 am #419686
Yep my query has been passed on to the Apprenticeship Service.January 10, 2020 at 11:53 am #419690
jessicar – Yes, that’s what I thought about the price. Martin is advocating using the full price again, as that “would follow the guidance as for any returning from a BIL”. The trouble is, this is both a BIL and a change of employer, and the guidance about TNP for each is differnt, so which do we follow?January 10, 2020 at 12:03 pm #419693
The PSM does support both the original price and a new price.
674. Record the price details as required using AFinType = TNP and the applicable codes. The price recorded on the new programme aim should be the same as the price prior to the break in learning unless you and the employer have negotiated a new price for the programme.
HTHJanuary 10, 2020 at 12:23 pm #419702
Ok, I’d missed that bit. So yes, record just the reduced price.January 10, 2020 at 2:28 pm #419727
Just coming back to your discussion about crossing months where it becomes problematic.
If we have an apprentice that leaves an employer on say 31st of the month and starts with the new one on the 1st, are we expected to put them on a BIL for this because of how the funding works? I’m just thinking of the questions I’m going to have to field from folk about paperwork etc to process the BIL.
MelJanuary 16, 2020 at 3:13 pm #421084
One of the purpose of the limited break for change of employer is to make sure funding is not drawn down where a learner is not employed on the last day of the month, if the leave on any date prior to the last day of the month and start within 30 days they will need a BIL this will also ensure the original duration is maintained.
In your example of 31st and then starts on the first the next month there is no break but if they started on the 2nd they would have a break and you would use a BIL to maintain the duration of learning even though no funding suspension is required.
HTHJanuary 16, 2020 at 3:35 pm #421102
That’s great. Thanks so much for your help.
MelJanuary 16, 2020 at 3:36 pm #421104
I’m not sure if this helps but just for your reference, this is the response I have received from Apprenticeship Service Support this afternoon in relation to paragraphs 264 – 265.2 being totally contradictory of each other.
“Funding rule 264 is a new rule introduced in January 2020, to allow flexibility where a learner has left employment for reasons other than redundancy. Where the break in employment is less than 30 days, you can record a break in learning for the learner.
It would appear that paragraph 265.2 has not been updated to take account of paragraph 264, but this will be raised with the relevant specialist team. You should treat paragraph 264 as accurate.
To deal with your later point, yes if a learner was unemployed for 5-10 days for reasons other than redundancy a break in learning should be recorded.
I will also raise the point that paragraph 264 is not echoed in the flowchart”.
My initial query was raised with the ESFA service desk who then sent it to Apprenticeship Service Support even though it was a Funding Rules related matter.
The service desk stated that:
“The Apprenticeship Service team are the specialist team for anything related to apprenticeships or the apprenticeship service site and as such your enquiry regarding Apprenticeship Funding Rules was forwarded to them to action”.
Hope this information is useful, if anybody has been given any contradictory advice it would be interesting to know.
EmmaJanuary 16, 2020 at 3:48 pm #421111
Please can someone clarify who this rule applies to?
Is it only for starts from August 2019, or is it for any learner (including starts before August 2019) who change employer after August 2019?
ThanksJanuary 17, 2020 at 8:28 am #421213
From 1 August 2019 only, as the previous funding year is closed it would not be possible to apply this to any learners prior to this date.
HTHJanuary 17, 2020 at 9:07 am #421223
I didn’t mean to apply this rule retrospectively.
For example, if we have an apprentice who started in the 18/19 funding year, but left an employer and started with another 2 weeks later in this funding year, would this new rule be able to apply?
ThanksJanuary 17, 2020 at 9:48 am #421234
It is the rule that applies from 1 August 2019 not the original start date of the Apprentice.January 17, 2020 at 9:55 am #421242
Thanks Martin – I was thinking that the rule may only apply from January!January 17, 2020 at 10:52 am #421293
The changes to the funding do have dates for reservation of funds (9/1/2020) and Transfer of levy (2/1/2020) but has no date for the change of employer gap and as such 1/8/2019 would apply.
HTHJanuary 17, 2020 at 11:15 am #421316
I was wondering if anyone is able to clarify P264 of the funding rules (below).
My interpretation is that the first sentence indicates a BIL can be 30 days, i.e., 30 days where the learner is not employed. The final sentence states employment should be found within 30 days, which implies the learner can be unemployed for up to 29 days as they must find employment before or on the 30th day of their unemployment.
P264 An apprentice has to be employed continuously for the duration of the apprenticeship.
If their employment is terminated, the individual cannot continue with their
apprenticeship (with the exception of redundancy) where the break has been longer
than 30 days. When employment or an apprenticeship agreement has ended
(resignation, dismissal or any other action by the apprentice or the employer that
results in the apprenticeship agreement ending) and new employment hasn’t
commenced within 30 days, you must notify us that the apprentice has left in line with
P285. Where a new employer is found and employment starts within 30 days, you
must manage this using a break in learning to ensure funds are not paid when the
apprentice is not employed.February 5, 2020 at 2:36 pm #426012
Am I right in thinking that the ESFA have forgotten, again, to change other documentation that requires updating as a result of this change? I’m looking at the break in learning flowchart that was new this year in the funding rules doc (page 53 of v2) and it still appears to indicate that a learner leaving their employer cannot be a break in learning, they have to be a full withdrawal.
Just want to check that others are seeing the same thing and it’s not just that I’m missing something obvious in the flowchart before I raise it with the service desk.February 6, 2020 at 11:40 am #426266
Not sure if this helps anyone but this is the response I got from the ESFA about the new 30 day rule it didn’t answer my question but may answer yours…
If there is a change of employer but the apprentice continues the same apprenticeship with the same main provider, the original employer must stop payments through their apprenticeship service account, using a stop date that corresponds with the date the apprentice changed employer. They can also stop co-investment, as appropriate.
Any employer co-investment due from the first employer should be reconciled. Funding continues based on agreement with the new employer using the funds in their apprenticeship service accounts, transfer of levy funds or government co-investment.
The funding band cap will apply to the total cost across both employers. Additional payments stop for the first employer but they retain any payments already made. The number of days in learning with the first employer are added to the days in learning with the new employer to calculate when payments are due. Main provider additional payments remain unchanged.
The small employer co-investment waiver will stop if the second employer is not eligible. For the 16 to 18 framework uplift we will keep a history of amounts earned so far, and spread the remainder over the planned length, with 20% of the new total cost held back for completion.February 6, 2020 at 11:52 am #426270
This is due to the New Rule: Where an apprentice is no longer employed they cannot continue with their apprenticeship (with the exception of redundancy) where the break has been longer than 30 days.
In that respect the ESFA are correct in that they must be withdrawn excepting where a new employer is found and employment starts within 30 days, you must manage this using a break in learning to ensure funds are not paid when the apprentice is not employed.
The rules for a Break in learning (and definition) still apply but you can also manage a gap in employment of less than 30 days using the same ILR code used for a BIL to suspend funding and allow the duration of the Apprenticeship to be maintained.
HTHFebruary 6, 2020 at 12:32 pm #426295
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