learner changing employer but EPA process has started

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This topic contains 8 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Jaci 3 weeks, 6 days ago.

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  • Wayne H

    Hi all,
    I’ve got a question around what to do with regards to do when a learner has been on programme up to the point of starting EPA Gateway and now is changing employer. They are 19+ and all co-investment payments have been collected from the first employer.

    Any suggestions on how or proceed with this.

    We can sign them up to the new employer for the duration of the EPA period but what TNP03 and TNP04 would we use? The new employer will unlikely want to pay anything during this period, can we just leave the TNP01 and TNP02 until EPA completion?

    Any other ideas or tips would be good.



    Martin West

    Hi Wayne,
    At this point only 80% of funding will have been drawn down and the next employer will be required to fund the remaining 20%, you would split the remaining 20% between training costs TNP 3 and the EPA cost TNP 4.
    You also need to record a new Learner Employment Status record to reflect the new employer.
    You should refund the original employer any overpayment of co-investment payments and charge this to the new employer.


    Wayne H

    Thanks Martin, good suggestion.
    Issues we are having is with standards such as Dental that include mandatory qualifications, once the learners get the qual certificate they want to jump ship so they can get a higher paid job elsewhere. They don’t seem too bothered about the Apprenticeship certificate… mean we then go to try and sort out a change of employer very late into the programme.

    Anyone else having this issue, if so any way to combat this?


    Ruth CJ

    We’ve just had one of these! Just awaiting evidence to go through gateway, and has quit. It’s so frustrating. You’re right Wayne, if they’ve done some quals within their Standard, they don’t seem to care about the Standard itself.

    Checking the guidance, it’s clear that they must be employed throughout. It doesn’t actually say that the new employer must sign them up to complete the apprenticeship. I think it’s just assumed that the new employer must agree to sign them up on an apprenticeship contract, but it’s not in any rules I can find. Obviously we’d lose the 20% if we didn’t sign up the new employer, but what other implications would there be? I could argue we met the funding rule because the apprentice is technically employed.

    Assuming I can’t use that loophole, I’m wondering if we can just negotiate a really low figure with the new employer, and just accept that we’ve basically lost the 20%. That would still need them to be happy to sign up to all our contracts and agreements.


    Ruth CJ

    I’m awaiting a formal answer on this from the Apprenticeship Service. The (abridged) conversation so far;


    We have an apprentice that has completed all their delivery, and has therefore passed the gateway. They haven’t yet completed the EPA, but want to now change employer before they sit the EPA. The first employer is a non-levy payer, who has had contributions waived as they are small and the apprentices was under 19.

    Since the new Employment History record will start after the Actual End Date of the enrolment, will the remaining On Programme Payments, and the Completion Payment, all be drawn down in relation to the first employer? That would be 100% ESFA funded. Will it make a difference that the Achievement Date will be after the new Employment History record?

    If this were a levy payer, would it work the same? Would we still drawn the remaining On Programme Payments and Completion payment from the first employer’s levy account, as long as the new Employment starts after the Actual End Date, but before the Achievement Date?

    Apprenticeship Service Support

    The completion payment is paid on entry of the achievement date and on programme payments finish at the actual end date.

    Please see paragraph 233 of the Apprenticeship technical funding guide https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apprenticeship-technical-funding-guide


    Assuming both employers are levy payers. The new Employment History record will start after the Actual End Date of the enrolment, but before the Achievement Date. Will the Completion Payment come from the levy account of the employer who was the employer at the Actual End Date, or the levy account of the employer who was the employer at the Achievement Date?

    If we’re supposed to try and get the new employer to pay the completion payment, what dates would you advise on their DAS record? The End Date is meant to represent the training end date, which has already passed. The new employer would have to falsify this end date for us to be able to draw that money down from their levy account.

    Apprenticeship Service Support

    The training end date for the DAS record will be when you estimate the EPA will finish. An individual can not move on to another apprenticeship before the EPAO is finished.


    We put that as matching our Planned End Date in our ILR, which now represents the gateway, which is before the EPA end date. If your statement is correct, then the terminology used on the DAS website is extremely misleading. The End Date is referred to variously on different screens under various names, including “Training End Date”. Training does not include the EPA. If the date we use on the DAS is meant to represent the planned EPA end date, can that terminology be updated as a matter of urgency.

    What do you all do? Do you record the DAS End Date as the date you think they’ll sit the EPA? The difficulty is, I’ve never seen any guidance on what it should be, there’s no ILR Spec type document for the DAS.

    There have been a couple of threads on this, and it does appear that everyone came to the conclusion that the DAS End Date is the EPA End Date, but it isn’t good enough that this information isn’t published. Like jessicar said the other day “Seems you can only know the answer if you ask the question…”.


    Has anyone managed to successfully deal with an apprentice who changed employer between the gateway and the EPA? Just not recording the change would mean the first employer would be charged for the Completion Payment (unless they stopped their DAS record), but who should the EPA Certificate go to? This is an utter nightmare that the ESFA really needs to consider, and give some advice on.

    It can happen where an apprentice is getting to the end of a fixed term contract, and the employer has said they will have no jobs available afterwards (might be unlucky, might be they don’t want to continue to employ that person). The apprentice starts looking for jobs, and they’re not going to turn down starting asap just because of their EPA, especially when they’ve already achieved a component qualification, which they seem to value far more highly that the Standard itself. I can’t see us getting any money out of the new employer, why would they choose to pay?


    Ruth CJ

    I just double checked the DAS, and the End Date is variously called;

    Projected Finish Date
    Planned End Date
    Training End Date

    It gives me a new found appreciation for the consistency and clarity of the ILR data.


    Martin West

    Hi Ruth,
    The end date on DAS is not used in any funding calculations or Dlock reporting.
    All funding is driven from the ILR alone.
    Have had these before with no issues excepting the new employer has to fund the 20% completion payment either from the levy or co-investment.


    Ruth CJ

    You managed to get the new employer to pay 20% of the original price with no benefit to them? Even if the new employer is small and the apprentice was 16-18 so they don’t have to pay, there’s still a whole heap of contracts and paperwork to sign. I can’t see many employers wanting to bother with that, especially if the apprentice isn’t that fussed, and didn’t tell their new employer before they started.



    Your right Ruth there needs to be better guidance on this.
    We tell our employers to use the Practical Period End Date (Learner goes into Gateway and there you go that’s another description for you!), but we record both Practical End Date and EPA End Date (when Learner is due to have completed gateway and achieved EPA) on our MIS. More clarity needed from the ESFA and AS.

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