Redundant Appremtice

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This topic contains 10 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  BillinghurstT 4 days, 7 hours ago.

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  • BillinghurstT
    Participant

    Hello all,

    Before I go to the helpdesk and ask them which will probably take about 10 days I thought I would ask on here.

    We have 2 apprentices from an employer that have been made redundant 7 months into their 2 year apprentice. They are currently in the 12 week period because the nursery they work at was closed by a charity but is going to be reopened by manager (long story but she is now just waiting for the hoops to jump through in order to be registered with Ofsted).

    They were on a 30 hr year round contract but will now be on 16 hrs term time contract. I presume that because they have over 1 year left on their apprenticeship I need to extend their planned completion date?

     
    #464004

    steveh
    Participant

    Um, they need to have less than 12 months to go to qualify for the twelve weeks (P31 V1 20/21 Rules)…

    These are just withdrawals and then new starts. ALSO, 16hrs TTO is going to ***massively*** increase the minimum duration, depending on precisely how many weeks the contract is…

     
    #464006

    steveh
    Participant

    If your usual duration is two years, someone on 16 hrs for 36 weeks TTO will be expected to be on programme for best part of FIVE years…

     
    #464010

    BillinghurstT
    Participant

    Hello Steve,

    Yes I’m going to make that point to them. In terms of the 12 weeks, I thought from rule P87.2 it didn’t make a difference on the upper length from the end date:

    P87 If an apprentice is made redundant, we will continue to fund their training even if
    they cannot find another employer in the circumstances below:
    P87.2 We will also fund apprentices’ training for 12 weeks where they are made
    redundant more than six months from their final day, while they seek a
    further apprenticeship agreement (subject to the conditions set out in
    paragraphs P31.2).

     
    #464019

    steveh
    Participant

    But that’s explicitly linking back to the bit that says less than 12 months remaining?

     
    #464025

    Martin West
    Participant

    There does seem to be some disparity between the Paragraphs
    P87 If an apprentice is made redundant, we will continue to fund their training even if they cannot find another employer in the circumstances below:

    P87.1 Apprentices who are made redundant within six months of their final day will be funded to completion (subject to the conditions set out in paragraphs P31.1).

    P87.2 We will also fund apprentices’ training for 12 weeks where they are made redundant more than six months from their final day, while they seek a further apprenticeship agreement (subject to the conditions set out in paragraphs P31.2).

    P31.2 Apprentices who have been made redundant, with more than six months but less than 12 months of their apprenticeship remaining. These apprentices may seek a further contract of employment and an apprenticeship agreement with a duration of less than 12 months if required, and we will fund them for up to 12 weeks while they do so (see paragraphs P87 and P291).

    P291 Apprentices who have their apprenticeship agreement terminated before the end of the practical period because they are dismissed by reason of redundancy, and that agreement was terminated more than six months from their final day of the practical period specified in the apprenticeship agreement, may continue their apprenticeship training without being employed under an apprenticeship agreement (see paragraph P31.2). In these circumstances:

    Which is correct.87.2 or 31.2 or does 31.2 only mean they are exempt from the 12 month minimum duration and 87.2 still stand I think it the latter.

     
    #464052

    BillinghurstT
    Participant

    I am going to check with the service desk and see what they say.

    I am also going to ask about using the new employer within 30 day rule because they only were made redundant on the 31st August and I am hopeful that by the end of October it may be sorted.

     
    #464149

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    I am sure it is only par 87.1 and 87.2 that apply and 31.2 is a red herring.
    You do not need a BIL for the 30 day rule you only need to show the change of ES to unemployed for the time it takes to find a new employer under P87.2.

    HTH and the service desk confirm the same.

     
    #464158

    BillinghurstT
    Participant

    Ok I’m really confused. I ended up asking the helpdesk and they pointed me to the article below:

    https://help.apprenticeships.education.gov.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/360013970179-Funding-support-for-apprentices-who-have-been-made-redundant?source=search&auth_token=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJhY2NvdW50X2lkIjo5MjY4MzkyLCJ1c2VyX2lkIjozNjMzNzY1NTY3NjAsInRpY2tldF9pZCI6NzYwMDIsImNoYW5uZWxfaWQiOjYzLCJ0eXBlIjoiU0VBUkNIIiwiZXhwIjoxNjAzMzg2NjkxfQ.8ekpZQiogTKJN-G9K_KIZp-JYw40gaxDHpPddtBV104

    Apprentices who have more than 12 months left on their apprenticeship training

    If the apprentice does not find a new employer within 12 weeks, they’ll be withdrawn from their apprenticeship. If the apprentice returns to the same apprenticeship at a later date, they will need to satisfy the 12 month minimum duration rule.

    I am going to save this and keep it the learner’s file just in case!

     
    #465067

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    As that was issued in May prior to latest version of the funding rules in July 2020 I think the following takes precedence as there is no mention of the 12 months in the following:

    Exceptions to the minimum duration requirement
    P46 The only exceptions to the minimum duration requirement are where an apprentice:

    P46.1 Is made redundant with more than six, but less than 12 months remaining before their final day. In these cases, they may seek a further apprenticeship agreement which takes their prior apprenticeship experience into account. This further agreement may provide for a duration of less than 12 months.

    P46.2 Returns to the same apprenticeship after a break in learning or withdrawal.

    P46.3 Transfers between main providers but remains on the same standard.

    P47 For the exceptions in paragraph P46 above you must have evidence that the total amount of time spent on their apprenticeship, which may include more than one episode of learning, meets the minimum duration requirement.
    HTH

     
    #465083

    BillinghurstT
    Participant

    Direct from the helpdesk:

    “Thank you for your follow up email.

    I can confirm that P291 does not have a maximum of 12 months from the end of the programme.

    I appreciate your feedback that this is a bit confusing, however, P31.2 is regarding the apprenticeship agreement and the minimum duration. Apprentices would normally need to have an apprenticeship agreement in place but those who are being supported by the training provider in cases of redundancy, would not have an apprentice agreement with the employer.

    This rule is also in relation to the need to have a minimum duration of 12 months on an apprenticeship agreement and it is saying that those apprentices with less than 12 months are an exception to this rule.

    Apprentices who have longer than 12 months of the apprenticeship and find a new employer, would be able to meet the requirement to have an apprenticeship agreement with at least 12 months duration and therefore would not be an exception to this.

    I have fed your comments back to the relevant team. We welcome feedback regarding the funding rules and use these to inform future versions.”

    I am going to keep this email on file and if I have any audit issues, I will just bring it up

     
    #465093
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