restart planned hours

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Home Forums Data issues restart planned hours

This topic contains 19 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Martin West 2 weeks, 1 day ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 20 total)
  • Author
    Posts

  • 18illy
    Participant

    Hi,

    just ran a report through fis and two apprentices have come up as an error saying that the planned hours need to be returned, these learners started in 18/19 then went on a BIL and came back in 19/20 so would the planned hours need to be returned for restarts?

     
    #408611

    joanne2018
    Participant

    We’ve had the same for a restart in R03 and have entered the planned OTJ hours for the whole programme- not just from restart to end.
    Joanne

     
    #408615

    lharkins
    Participant

    I have an open ticket with the helpdesk on this one.

    Its only supposed to apply to new starts (BiL is a restart…)and has not been an issue till now

    They originally pointed me to the wrong guidance in the PSM

    If they ever get back to me ill post their reply

     
    #408621

    18illy
    Participant

    I just put the hours on the restart programme aim I put the full overall hours that were set from the beginning of the programme, the errors gone now so I’m guessing the rule does apply to restarts

    HTH

     
    #408714

    steveh
    Participant

    Yeah, it’s being incorrectly applied to restarts, they need to update the validation rules. In the meantime, putting the total hours for the whole thing seems the least worst workaround.

     
    #408800

    lharkins
    Participant

    Just confirmation. received this from helpdesk::

    Further to your query;

    Rule name: phours_01

    Please refer to the guidance below – Para 4.2.4 – Page 29 onwards

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/823097/ProviderSupportManual_19_20_Version_1_PDF.pdf

    If you have any 18/19 carryover learners into 19/20 then you should only include the off the job hours for the new period of learning left.

    Best go back through again and fix the fix for the fix to avoid the error…..

     
    #412493

    18illy
    Participant

    Just had a look at that section in the support manual it’s not easy to comprehend but I’ve read it as you only update the planned hours yearly for funding models 25,35,81,10 and 99 this excludes apprenticeships so I think I did it correctly

     
    #412503

    steveh
    Participant

    OH FOR FLIPS SAKE!!!

    That para is about *planned learning hours* NOT about the new field, what an absolute shower…

    @lharkins, have you got an INC number for this so I can forward it to someone who might be able to sort it out…

     
    #412513

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    Wow. I know the terminology is confusing when “Planned Learning Hours” and “Planned Hours” are completely separate things, but when it’s their job to know the difference, you’d think they’d get it right.

    18illy – You’re right, Planned Learning Hours is an annual value for 16-18 and AEB students. Planned Hours is a overall programme value for apprentices. You’ve definitely coded your enrolment as a restart with the restart indicator and original start date? If so, then the error is triggering incorrectly, and I agree with Martin that you’ve done the best thing you can do until they fix it.

     
    #412525

    sambern
    Participant

    Is anyone still having an issue with this? We’re still triggering an error if this isn’t returned for restarts from a suspended learner.

     
    #425788

    18illy
    Participant

    Hi sambern,

    OTJ hours need to be returned for restarts and any starts in 19/20, you’d just enter the planned off the job hours that were set at the beginning of the programme unless otherwise

    This is the response I got from the ESFA
    if the apprentice is going to use the same amount of OTJ hours originally planned then you would input this. If you have agreed that the apprentice would need to use more OTJ hours than originally planned then input this.

    hth

     
    #426215

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    I had this from the ESFA Service Desk about OTJ Planned Hours for restarts;

    I have received confirmation that the remaining off the job training would need to be entered in the ‘Planned Hours’ field for a restart apprenticeship.

    There was a long conversation before this, and I’ve definitely been told to record only the remaining OTJ on the restarted programme aim. It makes sense, as there’s an exception for the minimum OTJ hours in the funding rules where you’ve coded it as a restart. If we were always supposed to include the full OTJ again (like we do with TNP), there wouldn’t need to be an exception for restarts.

    Have you got the incident number for the response you got, and I’ll raise this inconsistency.

     
    #426321

    18illy
    Participant

    Welp this is interesting lol I asked them how the process goes with the new change of employer rules, so putting an apprentice on a BIL then restarting them once new employment is found, so I asked about how we record the OTJ and this was the full response

    In cases where an apprentice changes employer or provider, but continues on the same apprenticeship as before, we will use the date the apprentice originally started the apprenticeship to determine the co-investment rate to use. The co-investment rate we use depends on whether that start date is before 1 April 2019. For apprentices who start an apprenticeship on 1 April 2019 or after this date, the employer must co-invest at a rate of 5%, if co-investment is required. For apprentices who historically started between 1 May 2017 and 31 March 2019, the rate was 10%.

    I can not answer how much a levy paying employer would need to pay as this depends on the price of the apprenticeship negotiated with the provider.

    The main provider should record breaks in learning on the ILR and re-plan the delivery of any remaining training and/or assessment following a break, if required. So if the apprentice is going to use the same amount of OTJ hours originally planned then you would input this. If you have agreed that the apprentice would need to use more OTJ hours than originally planned then input this.

    the ticket number I have is 20044 because this query got sent to the apprenticeship support team

     
    #426330

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    The first bit is correct.

    The second bit is unclear. The sentence “So if the apprentice is going to use the same amount of OTJ hours originally planned then you would input this” seems to me to be saying you should repeat the original OTJ value, which i was told was wrong.

    Thanks, I’ll chase this up and see if we can get a clear answer.

     
    #426385

    CRQA
    Participant

    I dont suppose we ever got a clear steer from the SDE about this?

    tia

     
    #452809

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    We’re still working with contradictory responses as far as I’m aware.

    Whilst I think the original intent was that it should be the remainder (why else would there be a validation rule exception for the minimum OTJ hours for restarts), it’s a whole lot easier to just record the original value again. If it came to audit, as long as you could evidence the correct OTJ for both periods together, you’d be fine.

    My next puzzle is how I tie together the Actual OTJ from both periods, to then populate this on completion of the second period, but that an internal process consideration.

     
    #452860

    steveh
    Participant

    ooh, this is in the DRAFT rules!

    P58.1 We do not require actual hours information on the ILR where the
    apprenticeship has been disrupted by a change of provider or
    programme, but we reserve the right to introduce this mid-year.

    Doesn’t mention BIL learners though.

     
    #452884

    Ruth CJ
    Participant

    This is about Planned OTJ hours, and whether we should be recording the full original plan or the plan for the remaining period. If they’ve changed provider, you can only ever record your own plans.

    That is interesting about Actual Hours. How can they reserve the right to introduce that mid year?! We should have good records on OTJ anyway, so shouldn’t be an issue really.

     
    #452933

    Matt
    Participant

    Hi everybody!

    I’m just wondering if anybody received any further clarifications on this subject?

    I am in the process of transferring a large number of apprentices and would be interested to know if the planned OTJH are the original planned hours or the remainder for the restart period?

     
    #473760

    Martin West
    Participant

    Hi,
    I take it that you record the Planned hours as on the triparty commitment statement issue by the Provider when it is a new start or transfer in.
    HTH

     
    #473773
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