just ran a report through fis and two apprentices have come up as an error saying that the planned hours need to be returned, these learners started in 18/19 then went on a BIL and came back in 19/20 so would the planned hours need to be returned for restarts?November 4, 2019 at 3:38 pm #408611
We’ve had the same for a restart in R03 and have entered the planned OTJ hours for the whole programme- not just from restart to end.
JoanneNovember 4, 2019 at 3:44 pm #408615
I have an open ticket with the helpdesk on this one.
Its only supposed to apply to new starts (BiL is a restart…)and has not been an issue till now
They originally pointed me to the wrong guidance in the PSM
If they ever get back to me ill post their replyNovember 4, 2019 at 3:48 pm #408621
I just put the hours on the restart programme aim I put the full overall hours that were set from the beginning of the programme, the errors gone now so I’m guessing the rule does apply to restarts
HTHNovember 5, 2019 at 9:08 am #408714
Yeah, it’s being incorrectly applied to restarts, they need to update the validation rules. In the meantime, putting the total hours for the whole thing seems the least worst workaround.November 5, 2019 at 1:11 pm #408800
Just confirmation. received this from helpdesk::
Further to your query;
Rule name: phours_01
Please refer to the guidance below – Para 4.2.4 – Page 29 onwards
If you have any 18/19 carryover learners into 19/20 then you should only include the off the job hours for the new period of learning left.
Best go back through again and fix the fix for the fix to avoid the error…..November 25, 2019 at 11:32 am #412493
Just had a look at that section in the support manual it’s not easy to comprehend but I’ve read it as you only update the planned hours yearly for funding models 25,35,81,10 and 99 this excludes apprenticeships so I think I did it correctlyNovember 25, 2019 at 12:01 pm #412503
OH FOR FLIPS SAKE!!!
That para is about *planned learning hours* NOT about the new field, what an absolute shower…
@lharkins, have you got an INC number for this so I can forward it to someone who might be able to sort it out…November 25, 2019 at 12:28 pm #412513
Wow. I know the terminology is confusing when “Planned Learning Hours” and “Planned Hours” are completely separate things, but when it’s their job to know the difference, you’d think they’d get it right.
18illy – You’re right, Planned Learning Hours is an annual value for 16-18 and AEB students. Planned Hours is a overall programme value for apprentices. You’ve definitely coded your enrolment as a restart with the restart indicator and original start date? If so, then the error is triggering incorrectly, and I agree with Martin that you’ve done the best thing you can do until they fix it.November 25, 2019 at 1:48 pm #412525
Is anyone still having an issue with this? We’re still triggering an error if this isn’t returned for restarts from a suspended learner.February 4, 2020 at 3:43 pm #425788
OTJ hours need to be returned for restarts and any starts in 19/20, you’d just enter the planned off the job hours that were set at the beginning of the programme unless otherwise
This is the response I got from the ESFA
if the apprentice is going to use the same amount of OTJ hours originally planned then you would input this. If you have agreed that the apprentice would need to use more OTJ hours than originally planned then input this.
hthFebruary 6, 2020 at 10:33 am #426215
I had this from the ESFA Service Desk about OTJ Planned Hours for restarts;
I have received confirmation that the remaining off the job training would need to be entered in the ‘Planned Hours’ field for a restart apprenticeship.
There was a long conversation before this, and I’ve definitely been told to record only the remaining OTJ on the restarted programme aim. It makes sense, as there’s an exception for the minimum OTJ hours in the funding rules where you’ve coded it as a restart. If we were always supposed to include the full OTJ again (like we do with TNP), there wouldn’t need to be an exception for restarts.
Have you got the incident number for the response you got, and I’ll raise this inconsistency.February 6, 2020 at 1:05 pm #426321
Welp this is interesting lol I asked them how the process goes with the new change of employer rules, so putting an apprentice on a BIL then restarting them once new employment is found, so I asked about how we record the OTJ and this was the full response
In cases where an apprentice changes employer or provider, but continues on the same apprenticeship as before, we will use the date the apprentice originally started the apprenticeship to determine the co-investment rate to use. The co-investment rate we use depends on whether that start date is before 1 April 2019. For apprentices who start an apprenticeship on 1 April 2019 or after this date, the employer must co-invest at a rate of 5%, if co-investment is required. For apprentices who historically started between 1 May 2017 and 31 March 2019, the rate was 10%.
I can not answer how much a levy paying employer would need to pay as this depends on the price of the apprenticeship negotiated with the provider.
The main provider should record breaks in learning on the ILR and re-plan the delivery of any remaining training and/or assessment following a break, if required. So if the apprentice is going to use the same amount of OTJ hours originally planned then you would input this. If you have agreed that the apprentice would need to use more OTJ hours than originally planned then input this.
the ticket number I have is 20044 because this query got sent to the apprenticeship support teamFebruary 6, 2020 at 1:19 pm #426330
The first bit is correct.
The second bit is unclear. The sentence “So if the apprentice is going to use the same amount of OTJ hours originally planned then you would input this” seems to me to be saying you should repeat the original OTJ value, which i was told was wrong.
Thanks, I’ll chase this up and see if we can get a clear answer.February 6, 2020 at 3:32 pm #426385
I dont suppose we ever got a clear steer from the SDE about this?
tiaJuly 15, 2020 at 10:15 am #452809
We’re still working with contradictory responses as far as I’m aware.
Whilst I think the original intent was that it should be the remainder (why else would there be a validation rule exception for the minimum OTJ hours for restarts), it’s a whole lot easier to just record the original value again. If it came to audit, as long as you could evidence the correct OTJ for both periods together, you’d be fine.
My next puzzle is how I tie together the Actual OTJ from both periods, to then populate this on completion of the second period, but that an internal process consideration.July 15, 2020 at 1:37 pm #452860
ooh, this is in the DRAFT rules!
P58.1 We do not require actual hours information on the ILR where the
apprenticeship has been disrupted by a change of provider or
programme, but we reserve the right to introduce this mid-year.
Doesn’t mention BIL learners though.July 15, 2020 at 3:34 pm #452884
This is about Planned OTJ hours, and whether we should be recording the full original plan or the plan for the remaining period. If they’ve changed provider, you can only ever record your own plans.
That is interesting about Actual Hours. How can they reserve the right to introduce that mid year?! We should have good records on OTJ anyway, so shouldn’t be an issue really.July 15, 2020 at 6:26 pm #452933
I’m just wondering if anybody received any further clarifications on this subject?
I am in the process of transferring a large number of apprentices and would be interested to know if the planned OTJH are the original planned hours or the remainder for the restart period?November 18, 2020 at 4:29 pm #473760
I take it that you record the Planned hours as on the triparty commitment statement issue by the Provider when it is a new start or transfer in.
HTHNovember 19, 2020 at 10:21 am #473773
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