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Alas, yes. I think there’s quite a few of us that do. Do you have a question about it?
The ILR doesn’t record attempts or modules being taken, so as Martin says you just leave everything as is until the end of the programme. If you’re more used to the HE definition of completion (i.e. FUNDCOMP), ILR completion is completely different and is only to do with the overall programme. The only similarity between the two is the name!
Assuming you don’t have completed learners that you need to report this for at the moment, can you update the schema yourself in SXS and prevent the tag being output at all? We don’t use SITS for the ILR so I don’t know if it’s possible, but we use this screen to amend the Student return if the Tribal-issued schema is behind what HESA needs. Other than that, you’ll be stuck with find-replace all until Tribal issue the fix 🙁
Yes, exactly the same with us.August 28, 2020 at 11:41 am in reply to: ESFA apprenticeship agreement August 2020 version 2 #460612
It would depend if the student is being awarded anything. From 70 credits at level 4 they *could* have an award of “credits at level C”. But are you actually awarding them that?
What happens if you open the saved declaration? It sounds like someone has started one already and it could be that once you click that you’ll see the option for nil return.
Not been on the webinars, but here are some views form the other side of the fence.
If you mention “prescribed HE” to them they will immediately respond that that is an out of date term that no longer applies since (I think) HERA 2017. That fact that we all still use it isn’t something they worry about 😉 If you want to ask them about it, use the term “recognised higher education” instead to try and get an answer!
The things you’ve mentioned sound like they are applying the same rules to ILR data as they do to HESA data. We (HESA-returning institutions) can’t use self-declaration for highest qual because it directly effects funding. The UCAS tariff one is easier for us as well because we return all the quals so get errors if we get the wrong types of quals for the wrong highest level. They probably don’t realise the difficulty this creates for colleges.
The thing about levels relates to defining instances.
FUNDCOMP still has to be returned this year, but it’s not going to be used for anything other than those flagged 9 will be excluded from comparisons with HESES. I can’t find the OfS notification of that, but the HESA one is here https://www.hesa.ac.uk/definitions/student-collection/c19051-student-record-exceptional-guidance
I assume the same rationale will apply to FUNDCOMP in the ILR.
I love that you say the OfS is worse for data burden! I constantly hear the reverse from my colleagues: they hate everything the ESFA make us do for apprenticehsips and think that burden is ridiculous!
What aims are you using for components? I think the rules get triggered if you use class codes rather than aims specific to your HEI.
The usual updated commitment statement if necessary (for the ESFA) and then the records we normally have when a student returns from any period of dormancy (to cover off OfS). Depending on the course this might include fitness to study and fitness to teach evidence as well. I normally let our Registry worry about what they need though and just make sure the return dates and planned end dates match between our (separeate) ILR and HESA systems.June 15, 2020 at 3:50 pm in reply to: Degree apprentices returning from a break in learning #448194
We (a uni) emphasise to the apprentice and employer that this will be the case. Our usual regs have this for ‘normal’ students when they have to take a period of dormancy, so usually it’s just making sure the employers uderstand. This is especially the case if an employer is used to lower level apprenticeships with roll-on roll-off course set-ups. The employers we deal with that have never had apprentices before are usually fine with it.
JoJune 12, 2020 at 11:01 am in reply to: Degree apprentices returning from a break in learning #448112
If this does relate to the MODESTUD field, it’s the HESA/OfS definition you need to go by. We have some degree apprenticeships that are full time and some that are part time. We initially had a query from the OfS saying they “expect” apprenticeships to be part time (not that they “must” be), but when we provided the delivery model and showed it met the definition of FT they were happy it was returned as such.
If your delivery meets the 21hr/24wk delivery pattern then they are FT.
And I completely agree that the difference between the ESFA and OfS/HESA are a complete nightmare.
JoJune 4, 2020 at 10:31 am in reply to: Full time programme of study yet recorded as part time #447471
Is this a degree apprenticeship by any chance?
Not an answer to your question I’m afraid, but the easiest way to search the forum is to use site searches on google. To do this, put in whatever word/phrase you want to search for and then add a space then site:http://feconnect.education.gov.uk/ into the search box.
e.g. “return from BIL” site:http://feconnect.education.gov.uk/
This will limit your searches just to here 🙂 By far the easiest way to do searches for lots of sites when the integrated search is a bit lacking!
We’re still in the thick of it! Our main stumbling blocks have been (1) getting academic engagement to set up the programmes, (2) getting Aptem talking to our student records system and (3) getting our existing apprentices and their ILR records into Aptem.
If you’re implementing Aptem as a standalone system and have no existing apprentices to import I think you’d have a much easier time of it.
Oh, I know that one! Definitely feels like square pegs and round holes a lot of the time.
If you can get the mod through that might be the easiest way to deal with things. So far we haven’t had this issue, it’s just been on my horizon as a potential problem. Hopefully someone else will be able to chime in on this with more ideas.
One thought occurs – if the apprentice is attending lectures for their repeat module than they are still engaged in learning. They might have heard it before, but they are still learning as they didn’t have the skill/knowledge the first time around to pass. There might be problems with reaching 20% OTJ if they are only undertaking one module. If they are just doing a re-submission/retrieval then I would say it probably has to be a break.
Have you considered seeing if there’s allowances in your regs to allow for trailing credits in special circumstances? If it’s not allowable, can you speak to your quality department about changes to allow this for apprentices (providing that the number of credits isn’t too huge of course)?
Yes, that’s right. But that’s all about the use of the word “university” (linked from the page I gave as benefit of registering), not whether they can deliver apprenticeships or not. You can definitely deliver a degree apprenticeship without being on the OfS register. A provider can choose to register if they want to access the benefits, but they don’t have to.
I expect that if they are on RoATP first and then decide to register with the OfS (and change their name) they might have to update their RoAPT entry, but that is the only impact I can think of for completing the OfS registration second.
Sorry to contradict, but you don’t need OfS registration to deliver degree level apprenticeships. There are few reasons when you *have* to register, and delivering an apprenticeship is not one of them. See https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/regulation/what-can-registered-providers-do/which-providers-must-register-with-the-ofs/
I’ve just been through some very lengthy discussions around registration conditions and weird subcontractual arrangements, and one of the answers we got back was that you don’t have to be registered with the OfS to deliver degree apprenticeships either as a prime or a subbie (unless of course you want to, or meet the criteria in the link).
Of course, no problem. My email is in my profile 🙂
As far as my understanding goes, the HE dataset in the ILR is sent to the OfS to inform their stats, and is not used by the ESFA at all. The reason HEIs don’t have to do the HE dataset at the moment is that we also return these students in the HESA return, and the OfS use that for everything. I would be very sturprised if we had to start doing the HE dataset.
We’re HE and use SITS, but not for our ILR so I might not have all the answers. Happy to talk it through though if it would help though.
I think you’ll be lucky to find anyone at the ESFA who understands anything about HESA, and anyone at Liaison who fully gets the ILR (been there, tried that). Tribal is a bit vague on ILR as well. I really wish the SITS people and the EBS people would come together! I think we’re on our own at the moment…
Where are you having problems with in coding at the moment?
Who wins between ESFA funding regs and OfS rules depends who you’re talking to and which return you’re doing or dataset you’re looking at. The ESFA might classify apprenticeships as FT, but the OfS doesn’t expect them to be according to their definitions. That doesn’t mean they definitely can’t be though.
As you’re looking at APP resources then you will have to use the OfS definitions of FT, which you’ll find in the HESES guidance. Paragraphs 10 and 11 of Annex H of the HESES19 guidance goes into how to determine mode for apprenticeships. In short, if the credit load and duration is the same as the equivalent degree only course (and you ensure to only take into account the degree element of the apprenticeship, not anything else) then you can likely class it as FT. Otherwise, it’s PT.
Hope this helps
ETA: if you’re looking at older APP datasets, all apprenticeships were included in the FT lines irrespective of their actual mode of delivery, and you couldn’t disaggregate apprenticeships from normal delivery. At the briefings I went to this was pointed out to be contrary to other OfS datasets, so they said this would be changed for later releases. You may need to check the definitions of the dataset you’re using.
January 13, 2020 at 10:16 am in reply to: Full Time vs Part Time – How to classify apprentices? #420213
- This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by joannab.
You’ll need to submit a new file. If one gets stuck like this it won’t ever process (at least mine haven’t when this has happened previously).
Not quite yet, but we’re about to start implementation of it
We had that for a month or sowith one of ours – I think it takes time for all the systems to get in synch. Also, I think we found that even when the employer is on DAS and you have all the details, if the company who is transfering funds hasn’t finished doing everything you will get the issue.